273. Writing Dystopian Fiction with Liz Shipton

Author and pirate Liz Shipton discusses writing dystopian fiction, the tropes embedded within the genre, and why readers still enjoy it.
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Visit Liz's website:
https://lizshipton.com/

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https://www.instagram.com/lizshipton/

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https://www.amazon.com/stores/Liz-Shipton/author/B0BN4YHLXF?ref=ap_rdr&isDramIntegrated=true&shoppingPortalEnabled=true

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Today's topic is dystopian fiction, what it is, how to write it, and why readers still like it. Author Liz Shipton, whose work includes the Thalassic series, is here to offer her insights. This is "Writing Dystopian Fiction."

Jennia: Well, I'm thrilled to have you here! Thank you for coming!

Liz: Hey, thanks so much for having me!

Jennia: How did the idea for Salt first come to you?

Liz: So I live on a sailboat And I've been living on that boat for almost three years at this point. And when my boyfriend and I left our home in California on this boat and started sailing down the Pacific coast of the United States, that was kind of about the time that I started writing as well. I saw this trip as a great opportunity to pursue something that I'd been wanting to pursue for a long time in writing and just hadn't had the time or the space, you know, to be able to do it. So, yeah, so I started writing, and I basically just ended up incorporating a lot of my real life experiences, sailing and adventuring, into this book.

Jennia: Yeah, that's pretty obvious, even just from the first chapter and then the graphic that you have in the opening page where it's showing the different parts of a sailboat. Did you always plan on it being dystopian fiction, or did that just naturally evolve as you started writing?

Liz: I think when I decided to write—so I hadn't been a reader for a long time, the last thing I remembered reading when I decided to start writing was, like, Hunger Games and, you know, like, Hunger Games, Divergent, all that, like, dystopian fiction. That was, like, my jam back in the day.

Jennia: Yes!

Liz: So when I came back to it and was, like, "I want to write something," that was sort of the natural thing that my brain latched onto.

Jennia: Mhm.

Liz: And I think—I mean, I'm a little bit of a, like, I'm the kind of person that wants to, like, you know, send a message and just tell a political story and let's "**** the Man" and all that kind of stuff. So I think dystopian fiction sort of, like, is a good outlet for that stuff.

Jennia: Yeah, I think that really helps define it too, as to what it is. But that led into something else I wanted to ask about, and that was, what effect do you think that the current sociopolitical climate has on dystopian fiction? Not just now, but even over time?

Liz: Mmm. So I hear, or I see sort of around this idea that people don't want to read dystopian fiction because the world is kind of dystopian right now.

Jennia: Right.

Liz: But then most of the readers that I talk to who read my series are like, "Oh man, I love dystopian!" You know, like, I—they're the same as me who, like, you know, loved Hunger Games back in the day and haven't really, I mean, I don't know if there's been another sort of, like, bigger dystopian kind of thing that's happened since then, but a lot of the people that I talk to really like that and really miss it and want more of it. So I don't know, I think there's maybe a bit of a disconnect between this idea that no one wants to read dystopia because the world is a mess, and then people who actually, I think, kind of do, still.

Jennia: Yeah, I can see it almost being cathartic in a way, the same way that we look at horror and pick it up so we can explore those fears and sort of purge them from our systems a little bit about, "Well, what if this worst case scenario did happen?" But I was also thinking even about if we go back, let's say, like 50, 60 years, and we look at how it's changed—you know, so the Cold War and then Chernobyl, and we look at how those influences came across in the fiction of that time versus now, where a lot of it's climate change, where, of course—

Liz: Mhm.

Jennia: —corrupt governments play a part throughout forever. So there's that.

Liz: Right. That's like the staple, right, of dystopian fiction with, like, the corrupt government. And then, yeah, so, like, you know, my books very much are about climate change and the pandemic and a lot of mental health issues are also being tackled. So it's like a very different type of dystopia, I guess. I think corrupt government and social inequality are two sort of main staples of dystopian fiction. You're always going to be talking about who has and who has not, and why that is.

Jennia: Yeah. And not to sound like we're going completely off track, because this actually is tied in, but you make a lot of content that talks about the tropes and the types of characters that are really ubiquitous across this genre. Did you have to read a lot to pick up on those? And is this something you try to avoid in your own writing, or is it just (both start to laugh) unavoidable?

Liz: Oh man, that's so funny. So, no, that's—I actually don't read that much (laughs) to pick up for, like, what my videos are. And I think that actually is telling of how ubiquitous these characters and tropes are. That—I mean, even people who don't read. Like, my videos, I get a lot of people who see my videos who just, like, saw the Hunger Games movies—

Jennia: Ahh, right. know,

Liz: —20-however-long-ago-that-was, and still recognize, right, these characters and tropes. Like, that's how ubiquitous this stuff is. As far as it being in my own work. Yeah, I mean, I definitely. I try really hard to subvert tropes and to not just kind of go, you know, the same old thing that—like, I really don't, I don't really see the point in writing the same thing that's already been written a thousand times before. Like, I don't know why a person would do that. So I do try really hard to not fall into these tropes. However, the main character of my series name is Bird, which is a name that is not a name.

Jennia: (laughs) Right.

Liz: And so, yeah, you know, like, (laughs) I am guilty.

Jennia: Like when you see water or aluminum, I think was one of some of the examples you gave in a video (both laugh).

Liz: Yeah.

Jennia: That's interesting that you bring that up, because I've sent some of these videos, obviously in jest to some of the authors that I edit for. And almost every single time, the reaction is, "Am I being personally attacked?" But also said a little bit tongue in cheek. So I think that goes back to prove exactly how prevalent these are and that you do pick them up across all types of media, not just books.

Liz: Right, yeah, exactly.

Jennia: That also goes into thinking, why are these tropes and these stereotypes for these characters so ingrained in how we are telling these types of stories? And why do you think that is?

Liz: That's a good question. I mean, you know, there is definitely the argument that, like, there are no new stories and there are no new characters, right? It's just sort of a very sort of fundamental human thing that, first of all, we want to categorize people. I mean, we want to categorize everything, right? As humans, we want things to sort of fit into a neat little thing that we can put a label on and say, "Well, this person is like this, and this is why." So I think that that definitely is part of it. As far as, like, some of the specific tropes that have come up, I think people just look at the world, particularly with, like, dystopian fiction, and they see inequality and they see, you know, corrupt governments, and they want to talk about them. And so that's the kind of stuff that gets written about, right? This is stuff that people have an opinion about.

Jennia: I think this is true across all genres, but especially with dystopian fiction. And that's how the setting plays a part in character development. And I wondered if you could talk a little bit about that or even how we might see it with your own characters?

Liz: I think any good story, the character and the settings are going to sort of tie into one another, right? Like, the character should be a product of their, like, genetics or whatever, or upbringing, but also a product of their environment. So, like, in Salt, the main character, whose name is Bird, this—basically Salt, it's like a dystopian water world. The only way to get around is by sailing. And this girl, Bird, is sort of like a complete disaster. She can't sail. She drinks. She's a drunken sailor. And that—

Jennia: Instantly relatable (both laugh).

Liz: Right? And that, like, gives you friction, right? And something to play with, and makes the character and the world more interesting. Part of what I wanted to achieve writing these books also was to have a character that sort of felt like a bit of an idiot. As opposed to, like, the Katniss Everdeen character who's, like, so strong and knows how to use her bow and arrow and is out to save her little sister, and, you know, like, this real kind of upstanding person. I wanted, instead, a character who was kind of a mess, and didn't really have any skills, and was really struggling in this dystopian world. Through, you know, through partly through her environment, but also partly through sort of her own mistakes and actions that she was taking. And so, yeah, to put a person who can't sail in a dystopian water world, I think it's much more interesting than putting a person who can sail in a dystopian water world, for sure.

Jennia: No, I agree. And I think it goes something with, you know, we talk about the Mary Sue characters and how they tend to read as dull, or we don't have that same relationship with them because we can't really put ourselves in their shoes and envision ourselves in the story. But with someone like Bird, it's a lot easier, really, because how many of us do have these skills and would know instantly what to do? Are always noble and always making the right choice?

Liz: Mhm. Yeah. Yeah.

Jennia: Is that something that you do throughout all of your books, or is she more of an anomaly as far as how you write your characters?

Liz: I'd say I definitely lean more towards the antihero type I'm writing a book right now for my traditional publishing debut. And the main characters, as she develops (laughs) I'm like, "Oh God, I don't even know if this is a likable character." Like, people, I think, are going to struggle to really like this person, but I don't know why. That's just what I write (both laugh). Like, those are the people, I guess, that I identify with? I don't know.

Jennia: Yeah, but sometimes too, when you can get a strong response, whichever end it's on, that can only be a sign that you've written a memorable book because it is those books that we remember forever and continue talking about. Even if we didn't like the character or we didn't like the plot, for whatever reason—

Liz: Mhm.

Jennia: —you stuck in someone's head, so A+ for that (both laugh).

Liz: The bummer is—so the character of Bird is very much based on me. The books are very autobiographical. Like, not only it's not just, like me pulling in my sailing adventures and all that stuff. It's actually sort of detailing my own journey to sobriety and my own struggles with mental health over the last, like, couple of years that I've been just working through. So sometimes I'll see a review on Amazon (Jennia laughs) where someone's just, like, trashing the main character and I'm like, "Oh, okay, well, I guess we would never be friends then." (both laugh)

Jennia: Well, how do you—how do you not take that personally then? And I'm going to guess that they don't realize that they're actually dissing you as well as the character (Liz laughs). But so how do you separate from that?

Liz: I mean, you can't 100 percent. There's definitely, like, a period of time where you're just, like, gutted, but you have to move on, right? Like, you just move on and you're just, like, "Well, the book wasn't for that person, I guess." And so what also really, I think, sort of balances that is that I do hear from people who have—So Bird is neurodivergent and I hear from people who either are neurodivergent or have neurodivergent people in their lives that they really do identify with Bird and that they felt seen and represented. And so, like, that is sort of the other side of the coin where it's like, okay, well, obviously this character's not for everybody, but I'm looking for my people. You know, like the people that she is for, which is always really, really rewarding to get feedback like that.

Jennia: Yeah, that definitely has to be satisfying, just knowing that you've hit the mark with the people where they needed that. Maybe not so much the people who are never going to get it anyway.

Liz: Mhm.

Jennia: When you're writing dystopian fiction and even just your personal take on what you've seen and read, do you think it's important to show how the world ended up in this state, or is that something that can be left for the reader to figure out on their own?

Liz: Ohh, that's such a good question. Yeah, this is like something that throughout the series, I kind of realized is that you don't necessarily have to show exactly how the world—because when I first wrote Salt—Salt's been through like a few revisions. When I first wrote it, there was much more of like, "Here's why this is this way," and kind of explaining the world building in that way. But then as I wrote, I kind of realized you don't necessarily need that, at least not for the type of fiction that I'm writing, which is, you know, dystopian with a heavy romantic subplot. Like, people, and I, am really there for the character development. And the world is cool, and I love the world, and I love world building, but I think you can get away with not putting all that stuff in there. As long as you know it, right?

Jennia: Right.

Liz: As long as you know what the rules are. If someone calls you out on it, then you can be like, "Well, that's why this is." I did write a prequel to the series that kind of goes through... like, does kind of introduce a little bit more of how the world got to be that way. So that can be a nice way to do it too, if you want to include that stuff.

Jennia: Yeah, I can see bonus content being useful that way too.

Liz: Mhm.

Jennia: Like little newsletter blurbs and stories, or sign up for my newsletter and get this bonus story.

Liz: Right.

Jennia: Do you use social media to also hint at some of the world building or include pieces that you might have left out in the actual writing?

Liz: So I actually don't anymore. When I first got on social media, I was doing a lot more of, I am a sailor and here's kind of like sailing stuff and how it relates to the book and more of like, "Here's the dystopia and here's the world building," and all that kind of stuff. And it did okay. But then, like about six months ago, I had these other types of videos that I make blow up, and that's really all people want to see from me now (both laugh). So I just make those. I don't really even talk about my books all that much. I just put up silly videos where I'm, like, air typing at the computer.

Jennia: (laughs) Yes. Yeah, but they're so spot on and accurate, you know, you start to wonder, "Why do they all smell like cinnamon? Where is this abundance of gum that they're finding anyway?" (Both laugh)

Liz: Uh huh. Yeah.

Jennia: Going back to world building, though, how do you address that across a series so there isn't this glut of information right in the beginning? And then how do you string that out across so there's always something new being revealed?

Liz: I think it's hard as an author, or at least for me. I really want to tell everyone everything right away. Right? I'm like, "Oh God. Here you go, guys. Like, here's everything!" And I really want to make sure people understand it, and I really want to make sure people get it, and I really want to make sure they know exactly how cool this is. And you kind of have to, like, learn to be patient and learn to hold stuff back and be like, "All right, it's fine if people don't know this right now. I'm going to bring this in later." And then you just have to make sure that you story—like the action, and the dialogue, and the characters—are compelling enough that people get to that information later. Because I think that's the fear, right? It's like, "Oh, well, if people don't keep reading, they're never going to know XYZ thing." And it's like, well, then you'd better keep them reading, if you're, you know.

Jennia: Yeah, that's a really good point, yeah. Because I can see that too, that the world building could quickly overshadow the actual story that you're trying to tell, just because you do have that enthusiasm to put it all out on paper.

Liz: Right. Like, the book I'm writing right now, which is more in the fantasy—it's like a modern fantasy, I guess—I am really enjoying stringing out the world building throughout, I mean, the entire book really. Like, you don't really get a complete picture of the world until the very, very, very end. And I really enjoy that. I love, I love making the world building as streamlined as I possibly can.

Jennia: Yeah, I think that's a lot more satisfying too, for the reader. Especially when it does all come together at the end, because you're allowing them to take those pieces of information and combine them on their own, and then again have that revelatory experience at the end where they see why it all matters.

Liz: Yeah. Yeah. I tend to think that readers are smarter than sometimes we give them credit for. And I, like, I've gotten into a place now where I'm just, like, stripping a lot of things out of my prose in terms of some of the world building, but also in terms of things like characters' facial expressions, and dialogue tags—

Jennia: Mhm.

Liz: —all kinds of things. And really just, like, stripping that prose down because I honestly don't think it needs to be there. I think readers can pick up on a lot of stuff just from, like, context and what's being said. I think sometimes there's a tendency, or at least there was for me in the beginning, to want to explain every little action in every little detail. And I just don't think we need to do that.

Jennia: Yeah. And then too, if you've developed your characters strongly enough, readers are going to have such a good idea of who they are and why they do what they do, they aren't going to need that explanation because they can fill it in on their own. Just like they would with someone in their real life, where they're able to make these accurate assumptions about their actions and what fueled them.

Liz: Right, like, a lot of my—I guess I don't really do a lot of, like, internal monologues of characters either. I try to have everything kind of happen through, like, dialogue. I don't know, I kind of just think it's more fun to read.

Jennia: Yeah. And then too, you also run into that issue—not you personally, and I haven't seen this reading Salt, but other people who might rely heavily on world building, they just use that as another way to info dump about the world building. Especially when someone is thinking in excruciating detail about, well, this is happening because this happened 500 years ago. And here's what led to that thing from 500 years ago... Okay.

Liz: Yeah. And it's hard. It's super hard because sometimes you're like, "Well, how am I going to get this information across?" It's, like, sometimes it's unavoidable. Sometimes you do have to do a little bit of that clunky stuff. But I really try so hard not to do that (Jennia laughs) because—I mean, I think there is some of it in Salt because it's like the first thing I ever wrote, so it's fine. But yeah, as much as I can strive to pull that clunky stuff out, I do as much as I can.

Jennia: So going back to the setting a little bit, and this really applies because it is a series. So dystopian fiction tends to talk a lot about heavier topics, or even the atmosphere itself might feel a little bit more weighed down than it would in something like a contemporary romance, for instance. So how do you stop it from feeling too emotionally difficult or like they're just encountering obstacle after obstacle and they never let up in that?

Liz: That's a good question. I have actually read reviews of my books where people have said, like, "Why does so many things—(Jennia laughs). Why do so many bad things happen to this character?"

Jennia: Well, it is the end of the world, but (laughs).

Liz: Right! So I don't know if I'm necessarily doing a good job of that because people have definitely commented on it. I try to strike a balance between, like, humor and pathos. You know, my characters, they love to banter. There's always going to be, like, a snarky heroine who swears too much and, you know, says just outlandish things. And I think that kind of—like, if you can keep it light in that way, you can delve into some of these, like, heavier themes and not beat people over the head with them. You can have a character say, a single line of dialogue that can, you know, communicate a whole breadth of ideas.

Jennia: Yeah. Do you have any examples you are willing to share where you've done that, even if you use vague terms? (Both laugh).

Liz: Oh boy. Can I think of anything? I think so, okay. So like, for example, in the Thalassic series, it's—a lot of it is about, like, the end of the world and dystopia and all that stuff, but it's also about Bird becoming sober and dealing with her mental health issues. And she's discovering why she drinks in the first place. And that doesn't really all come to light until, like, book three.

Jennia: Mhm.

Liz: But in book one, it sort of gets hinted at. So, like, there's this conversation where Bird and Sargo, they're basically arguing because Bird did something really stupid again. He says something like, "Well, all you need to do is, like, think before you act." And she just says, like, "Hey, you know, like, that's really hard for me. Sometimes I feel like my brain is just sort of, like, running off and I don't have control of it." I can't remember exactly what he says. But anyway, it's a brief conversation where he sort of says, like, "Well, did you ever talk to anyone about that?" And she says, "No." And I think that just him asking her if she's ever talked to anyone about what's going on in her head communicates enough that the reader kind of gets, like, "Oh, he's talking about therapy." And that's kind of, like, where this is heading. And that's underlying, underpinning all of this stuff that she's going through.

Jennia: Yeah. So when you're doing character development, how do you work that in? Because a lot of dystopian fiction does have character development, but it also mostly focuses on end of the world survival. So why do you think that both are necessary, and then how do you do that without taking away from this bigger picture of survival?

Liz: If you've—I don't know, and I don't know if I did this all that well in the Thalassic series, but if you have a dystopia that relates to the issues that your characters are going through, that is definitely one way to do it. Where, like, you know, the character development that they are experiencing is sort of a direct result, or at least tied into, what they're having to do to survive in the world, then it fits naturally together, and everything kind of progresses along and makes sense. So, yeah. So like, Bird, for example, who who can't fail, and is a total disaster, and drinking, and falling apart, and all that stuff. Throughout the series, she learns to sail and she learns to manage her brain and all of that stuff, and then it ends up tying in very much to what's also going on in the world and sort of the bigger, like, creeping political atmosphere or whatever that's happening in the background. So, yeah, I don't know. You kind of just have to find ways to, like, tie these threads together, I guess. Does that make sense?

Jennia: No, that definitely makes sense, and I think that provides other authors who are looking for ways to do it with just enough information. Because it is going to be so personal and different from story to story and character to character, and even with what those different authors are comfortable with touching on.

Liz: Yeah.

Jennia: All right, so for the final question before we close up, when you are creating a dystopian world, you mentioned before that a lot of this was based on your own life or that you do live on a boat. But how close of an approximation to our world do you think the dystopian world has to be?

Liz: I don't think it has to be super close, but I think that's what makes it compelling, is being able to recognize those things that are obviously pulled from our world. I think that's true of any kind of world building, or any kind of character, or anything, is that you can see a parallel in our world. So, like, even in, like, alien fiction and space opera and all that kind of stuff, what makes it fun to read is when you do recognize those things that are a part of our world. And that's—yeah, I definitely did try to do that with [the] Thalassic series. The world is very much like, "Oh, yeah, this could be us in some number of years for sure."

Jennia: Yeah. Well said. I mean, I've even thinking of earlier work like Planet of the Apes when, "Oh, look, it's the Statue of Liberty." Yeah, I think that helps drive that truth behind it too, because I think part of what makes it such a compelling genre is the idea of: this could possibly happen. This could be a future that we are looking at. And what can we also do to avoid this type of future? Because really, I think a lot of what dystopian fiction does is point out the issues in our current world right now and just make them a little more apparent than they might have been otherwise.

Liz: Yeah, exactly.

Jennia: All right. Well, thank you again! And do you have any upcoming news you'd like to share or places where people can find you?

Liz: Sure! So you can find everything about me at my website, lizshipton.com, and you can see my silly videos on TikTok and Instagram, I'm LizShipton. I have a traditional publishing debut which is happening next year, 2025, that I'm currently working on.

Jennia: Congratulations!

Liz: Thank you! I am very excited about it. And then, yeah, two more books in the Thalassic series actually are going to be coming out before then, and then the series will be complete. So that's everything that's coming up.

Jennia: That's a lot! It's all very exciting.

Liz: It's a lot, yes (laughs).

Jennia: Thank you for listening! And please make sure to check out the show notes for more information, including all of Liz's links. And then please join me next week as author and editor Ryan Steck joins us to talk about maintaining a fast pace and excitement throughout a series. And if you enjoyed today's episode, I'd greatly appreciate it if you took the time to leave a rating or a review wherever you download or listen. Thanks again!