271. How to Strive for Excellence in Your Storytelling with Steven James

Bestselling author Steven James discusses his insights on storytelling, structure, and the craft of writing.
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Visit Steven's website:
https://stevenjames.net/

Follow him on Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/readstevenjames/

Transcript

Jennia: Hello, I'm Jennia D'Lima. Welcome to Writing and Editing, the podcast that takes a whole person approach to everything related to both writing and editing. Bestselling thriller author and writing craft mastermind Steven James is visiting today, and he'll be sharing some of his storytelling insights. This is "How to Strive for Excellence in Your Storytelling."

Jennia: Well, it is an honor to have you here, and I'm so glad you could come to the show!

Steven: Thanks for having me! I'm excited to be here and share some thoughts with you today.

Jennia: Yeah, me too. So, for the few people who don't know who you are, if you'd like to just offer a quick introduction to you and your work.

Steven: Well, I've written 20 novels over the last, I guess—you know, since the early 2000s. And then I teach writing at different events around the world And I've written three books on the craft of writing fiction. So it's a fun journey. Back in the day, I got a master's degree in storytelling. I thought that would be cool to get. So that was in '97, I guess. Yeah. And so since then, I've just been a storyteller trying to—trying to tell stories, share storytelling insights, and, you know, write stories of my own.

Jennia: What goes into getting a master's in storytelling? And how did you even find a program like that?

Steven: I went to this thing called the National Storytelling Festival. This is back in the early 90s, and they were advertising this master's degree program. It was the only one in the world here in Tennessee. And so it's like, "Well, that sounds fascinating." And, you know, a lot of it was focused on oral storytelling, carrying on storytelling tradition, but... So with my work, I sort of did a mixture of both writing and also telling stories. Yeah, it was—it was fascinating, interesting. I'm glad I did it. I'm not—I'm not sure I would do it again (both laugh), but people are like, "Well, that's weird. You have a master's degree in storytelling," so at least it's a good conversation starter.

Jennia: Sure, why not? (laughs). What are some of the differences that you've noticed both from your work in your program and then just as you've been around in oral storytelling versus written storytelling?

Steven: Well, when we tell a story orally, you might go ABCD, like the events you typically will portray in chronological order. Let's say you're writing a short story, though very often people will start with more of a hook. So you might start with, like, C, A, B, D. So, like, maybe a hook, and then you'll get with the story and then pick it up later. So it's a small thing, but especially with short stories, it tends to be the case where when we tell stories orally, we orient people more at the beginning. And when you write them, you hook people more at the beginning. Maybe it's just because people who are listening in your audience aren't probably going to get up and walk out of the room, but somebody reading your story might just actually not read the next paragraph. So—

Jennia: Yeah, that's a good point. I can see that. Your mom is just, like, "Oh, this is already boring. Goodbye."

Steven: (jokingly) "Yeah, I don't think I'll read this."

Jennia: Going back to written stories, and other interviews, and then in some of your books on writing craft, you've advised writers to focus on things that can go wrong in their story and not to worry so much about identifying a theme or debating whether or not their story is character driven or plot driven. And I wonder, do you have any examples of that from your own work or maybe places where you felt like it stalled and you had to find something to go wrong?

Steven: Well, since I write organically, I'm always asking myself, "What could go wrong? Or what could get worse?" So it isn't really a problem for me to necessarily try to find. It's just so natural for me to look in that direction. But the thought about the note about, you know, theme and so on, some people will be so enamored with the idea of trying to get a message across—whether it's on friendship, or believing in yourself, or whatever the theme might be—that the story ends up suffering because it's under the burden of this message that they're trying to, you know, get across. And so I am much more interested in moral dilemmas than I am in moral messages. I'm much more interested in stories that challenge the protagonist through the struggles that he faces than ones that are just set up to try and get a message across to readers, so...

Jennia: Yeah, I think readers enjoy that too, because we don't want to feel like we're being lectured or we're having this heavy-handed message given to us when we pick this book up, most likely, for pleasure.

Steven: Yeah, it is totally true. And, you know, even in the last, maybe eight or ten years, it's like messages—I'll say, like, in Hollywood and also New York publishing, it's like people have become more and more focused on trying to get a specific message across in their books. So, like, you start watching a movie and you're like, "Oh, all right, I get it. I get what your social, political, you know, whatever messages that you're trying to get across," and people don't like it. People aren't going to the movies as much anymore. People are getting frustrated with reading. And, like, I would love it when someone reads a book of mine. Like, "I don't know if he's conservative, or liberal, or what he is, but I just had a great journey through the story, and maybe it made me think about some things in a new way." That's fantastic.

Jennia: Yeah, I've actually read that in some of the reviews on some of your books. You know, for instance, like that they're even published by Tyndale. And so then they didn't realize that this was, you know, quote unquote "Christian fiction" (both laugh).

Steven: It's so interesting. Like, you know, I don't really call myself Christian or non-Christian fi[ction]—I'm just trying to tell great stories. But some of my publishers have been more, like, what people would say, Christian publishers. And so people are like, "Well, what is your stuff like?" It's just stories. Like, I'm a Christian, but my stories are not sermons in disguise at all.

Jennia: No, not at all. And I think part of it too, is in another episode, I talked to someone about, can you keep your own personal worldviews, your experiences, out of the story? And the answer is no. And we're talking about, even as you look at literature through history, some of it's going to creep in just because that's how you have analyzed the world that's how you understand it. And so even if it's on a subconscious level, it still comes in.

Steven: Yeah, the thing is, like, I try to be honest with my characters. Like, some people have said, "Oh, this one character, I didn't like what she said or thought." I'm like, "Well, I don't like it either, but, like, that's what she thinks, you know?" And so, my books are peopled with characters who have different attitudes and perspectives than I do. Some are more conservative, some are more liberal, whatever it is. But my goal is just to tell the story and be honest to those characters, really, and not try to—try to get them to say what I would want said or done in the story.

Jennia: Speaking of characters and linking this back to story and storytelling, I can see that maybe with Gunner and his romance endeavors (both laugh), I'm going to guess that is not based on personal experience at all.

Steven: *in mock-shock* What? (both laugh)

Steven: So there's this character in Broker of Lies and Fatal Domain named Gunnar Bane, and he's a kind of tough as nails former Army Ranger, but also is trying to write a romance novel to make money to send his niece to college. So he's a very bad romance writer but thinks he's good or wants to be really good. And I mean, it's like he'll write something like, "Donovan reached over and touched Susie's arm, stroking her skin, the largest and most visible organ on her body," and you're just, like, "WHAT?" (both laugh). But so it's super fun writing Gunner's romance parts. I was just, like, "What's the worst romance writing I can write?" And then just trying to throw it in there. So it's cool. I like him. He's a fun character.

Jennia: So what writing advice would you give him? Or do you think he's beyond help?

Steven: Ohh yeah (both laugh). No, he might be beyond help.

Jennia: Yeah. So one thing too that I noticed that he does, and I've seen this even with—in different author groups, for instance, especially newer authors, he's really focused on author branding and his platform and he almost seems to put that above the actual writing. Is that something you've seen too? And what do you think of that decision?

Steven: I think that for me it's about story. Like, I just want to tell a great story. And when it comes to people asking me about marketing, promotion, PR, social media, branding, all that stuff, I'm like, "Literally, it's not my specialty, so..." I actually feel like when people come to me and they're like, "Oh yeah, I've got a website for my book, and I've got social media platform and all this stuff," and I'm like, "Well, what's your story about?" They're like, "Well, I haven't finished the book yet." Like, what are you doing? But they're so focused on marketing and building a platform and branding and all this stuff. I'm like, "Tell a great story, an amazing story," and that's, for me, the primary. So people might say, "Well, you don't post as much as you should in the Internet" or whatever. Like, that's probably because I'm writing my story (both laugh). That's the only thing I'm good at. I'm not good at the social media stuff.

Jennia: Yeah. What do you think has led to that shift with people focusing more on things like social media posts instead of the quality of the work?

Steven: Coming from publishers... Publishers are really pressuring authors these days more than say, 10 or 15 years ago to do marketing on their own. So it's almost like publishers want there to be a correlation between the number of times you post or the number of followers you have and the numbers of books they sell. Like that's what they want. But I just don't see data out there to support that. Like, I know some people who have huge social followings and almost no book sales, others who have incredible book sales but almost do no social posting and stuff. So I'm just not convinced that there's a strong correlation between the social media and the book sales. But publishers want there to be, and so it's like they pressure you to do that. You know, it used to be that big distributors and bookstores would sell a lot of books, and, well so now there aren't as many bookstores a lot. It's online. And so, you know, publishers are looking for ways to distribute the books and get the books out. And that's what they say, "Oh, we'll just have the authors do it," which I don't think makes a lot of sense. But (both laugh), that's kind of what things—

Jennia: You could have a follow-up book. Story Trumps Social Media, get that one out instead.

Steven: Oh my gosh. Yeah, no kidding, so... But I mean, more power to you, the people who are good at it. I just kind of figure that we only have so much time every day—

Jennia: Mmm, yes.

Steven: —and so many things can distract from the story that I'm trying to write. And so what ends up sort of taking the fall is probably social media kind of posting and stuff (laughs), and I'm just going to opt for telling the better story and then maybe not promoting it as much as some of my associates might.

Jennia: Yeah, well, how do you make a better story then? What takes a story from good to great?

Steven: I've actually changed my view of story over the last couple of years, so—

Jennia: Oh!

Steven: So a lot of people will say, you know, a story has a beginning, a middle, and an end. Or first act, second act, third act. Inciting incident, rising action, and on. And there's nothing essentially wrong with that perspective. That's a way of looking at story through a temporal lens, that obviously things occur in a certain order and so on. But I actually don't think it's very helpful to think of story in those ways, because then you end up thinking that story is about a progression of events instead of a collision of desires—

Jennia: Ohh, I see that.

Steven: —and so I actually feel like this whole idea of looking at story as, like, by act—first act, second act, third act—actually undermines telling great stories. Because then people will write reports and claim they're stories. Like, "I woke up this morning, I came down to my office, and I wrote my book." Well, it's three acts! So I actually feel like to tell better story, people need to step back from the temporal understanding and look at story on more of an elemental level of what are the actual core ingredients to a great story. And if we focus in that direction, our stories will improve and they will not end up just being reports.

Steven: So a couple of the aspects that I really focus on are struggle and pursuit, believability, [indistinguishable]. Every character needs to pursue what they desire most, and they're going to face struggles that force them to make difficult decisions, so—

Jennia: Mmm.

Steven: —so those are some of the sort of things that I focus on. And then what I call, actually, the pivot is this aspect of story that I'm really interested in helping people to develop when they write. And basically, a pivot is where a moment occurs that's both unexpected and inevitable. Let's say you have a scene, and you have only four possible options for how the scene could go. So, for instance, like, it could be unexpected, but also not inevitable. In other words, unexpected things happen, but it's like they're not inevitable or not believable.

Steven: Okay, so in other words, like, you're writing your story, and it's an Amish romance, and suddenly these aliens land (Jennia laughs) and shoot all the cows with photon rays and take off into space. Well, that was unexpected—

Jennia: Yes.

Steven: —but it was not inevitable. Okay, so we read that. Like, that's not believable. I don't buy it. So we don't want to do that. The other thing you can be is inevitable, but not unexpected. So this would be a predictable story where we know—we think, "I think I know where this is going to go." And it does. It goes exactly where we think. It's too predictable, it's too boring. So we want to avoid that. The only two other things expected, but also—I don't even know how to say—it's, like, expected and not inevitable. It's like nonsense. It would be nonsense. Like, I can't even imagine what that would be. The only other option for us is something that's unexpected, where you have surprises, but it's also inevitable, where it's believable and logical. And so in every single scene, we should have that moment, that pivot, as well as in the story as a whole, because without a pivot, your story will be either too outlandish, too nonsensical, or too predictable. So I'm spending a lot of time trying to help people understand this aspect of story and actually develop it in the—in the stories that they write and tell.

Jennia: Oh nice! So what led to that change? Because you talked about how that had changed from how you used to previously address storytelling.

Steven: Yeah, I used to teach story through the temporal lens that I mentioned. Which there's nothing, again, necessarily wrong with it. I just feel like it's not a robust enough understanding of story. And so I was working on my book called The Art of the Tale maybe three years ago, and I was, like, "I feel like I'm missing something." Like, you can have all the right ingredients as far as, like, you can have a character, setting, struggle, pursuit, but still have a story fall flat, or be too predictable, or be too outlandish. So I was, like, "I'm missing something." And when I finally realized it was the pivot, and then the final aspect is the payoff. Does it work? Then I finally began to understand that no matter what genre you write, no matter what length—short story, screenplay, novel, whatever—you can improve it by including pivots and payoff. So that really revolutionized the way that I teach writing and also the way I understand story.

Jennia: Wow. That actually makes a lot of sense, even just from an editing standpoint. And when I'm going through a manuscript and trying to see, not even necessarily as an editor, but first as a reader, am I captivated by this scene? Do I feel interested in what happened here? Does this convince me to continue reading? I can definitely see that.

Steven: Yeah, so I'll give you just a quick example. So I think of a story on the element level as like six aspects, like a cube. Your settings, struggle, pursuit, [and character]. Those are the first four. And I don't believe you can have a story without those. Like, I feel like that's the minimum that you need for a story.

Jennia: Mhm.

Steven: And then payoff and pivot. So I'll give you just a quick example, this story that I heard. So this old story from the Middle East about this guy who was lonely—actually hungry, and just wished someone would show up and show him—bring him some food and stuff. And he—nobody did. And he was frustrated and hungry. So he went to the jungle one day to look for some food, and he saw this fox with no legs. He thought, "Well, that's odd. I've never seen a fox with no legs before." And so he noticed nearby there was a tiger. And the tiger finished eating and dragged its meat over—the leftover meat for the fox. The guy's like, "That's weird. Wonder if that'll happen again." So the next day, he goes to the jungle, and there's this fox with no legs. And the tiger finishes eating his meal and brings over some meat for the fox. And the guy's like, "I think I know what I need to do." So he goes home and he waits for someone to show up and bring him some food. Like, he waits and waits and no one does. And finally he's dying, he's starving, he's on death's door, and he hears this voice, the voice of God, and it says, "Don't you even understand? You were supposed to be the tiger.

Jennia: Oh.

Steven: So you have a character in a setting: jungle. He has a struggle: he's hungry and lonely. And he has a pursuit: he goes to find it. So if you just have those four things, either he gets his food or he doesn't. You don't really have much of a story. But the pivot comes at the end, when the moment and the payoff come to gather in the last word, where you're like, "Oh, yeah. If we're just focused on ourselves all the time and just ourselves, maybe life is bigger than [that]. Maybe we can be the tiger and actually, you know, serve other people." So it's like the moment of the payoff. The meaning is embedded in that pivot that comes in the last word. So you don't need a super long story to have pivots and payoff. You just need to have stories that don't go in the way that we expect, necessarily, that still end up being logical and believable in the end. So that's the inevitability and the surprise that I was talking about.

Jennia: Yeah, I love that! And I love that you mentioned that it doesn't really matter how long or short the story is, because I think sometimes too, especially with short stories or flash fiction, we cut out so much in order to meet this predetermined word count, that sometimes we trim away too much and we end up losing what would have made that story truly remarkable.

Steven: Yeah, I feel like length is—is not as vital to a story as the logic of the story.

Jennia: Mhm.

Steven: So, like, some stories you'll read, they're short, they're super powerful. That's amazing.

Jennia: Yeah.

Steven: Other ones, you read short, and you're just, like, "This is already worrying me, and I can't even deal with this." Other novels you read, they're long, and they don't feel long.

Jennia: Mhm!

Steven: So I feel like stories a lot of times have more to do the engagement level. Do things make sense? Are they believable? And if they are, and we care about the characters, we'll go with them through their journey. But as soon as things aren't believable, or we don't care about the characters, or things don't make sense, or whatever, then we're going to be distanced from the story no matter how short or long it is.

Jennia: Yeah. Well said. I mean, all you have to do is think about that one person who knows a lot about physics or technology, watching a Sci-Fi movie with them when they pick out every single thing that could never, ever happen. And even if you didn't go in with that knowledge, now it is ruined (both laugh).

Steven: Yeah, I know you're like, "What? I can't time travel, no fair!"

Jennia: Yeah. "They could never do that in space. Turning it off." (Jennia laughs).

Steven: Yeah. "Does it really make sounds in space?" *replies, annoyed* "Oh, just let me enjoy it." Yeah.

Jennia: Well, do you have any upcoming projects that you haven't already mentioned, or maybe events or something that you would like to share about?

Steven: I have a number of conferences I'll be teaching at this summertime, and so information for those would be at stevenjames.net. So we have some opportunities for people to come to some intensives that I'm teaching here in Tennessee. And some other places around the country. Fatal Domain, my latest book, is just now available. Love for people to check it out. Drop me a note through my website and let me know if you like it. Or if you don't, don't write to me in my web (both laugh).

Jennia: And don't tag him in reviews either. That's just poor form (both laugh).

Jennia: All right, well, thank you again! It was so nice having you.

Steven: Thanks! It's great to be here!

Jennia: Thank you for listening! And make sure to check out the show notes for more information. And then please join me next week as Author Cheryl Grey Bostrom discusses how to bring your setting to life. I also want to let you know about a new feature that will allow you to text the show, so you can text your thoughts and feedback even as you're listening. Thanks again!